MoTeC M800 Traction control set up?

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MoTeC M800 Traction control set up?

Postby IJ. » Wed May 30, 2007 10:21 pm

Any and all info would be great ;)

I have a 6 position switch 0v>5v and would like to have this adjust the Trac with one position being 0 Control/off then wet>dry>10%>20%>30%

I have to add I'm very much a Motec newbie and am using 3.3 software.

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Last edited by IJ. on Tue Jun 05, 2007 3:28 pm, edited 3 times in total.
IJ.
 
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M800 TC

Postby Neel » Sat Jun 02, 2007 5:07 am

Before we start discussing specific settings, I'd like to present a primer on traction control. We at Apex Speed Technology have a broad amount of experience in traction control, having used EFI Technology, MOTEC, Pectel and Bosch systems in series ranging from Grand Am and ALMS to drag racing. We carry all major brands as well as the sensors, switches and accessories you'll need to make it work.

Types of Traction Control
There are two main types of traction control. They are difference-based and rate of change based. Difference based relies on comparing ground speed to driven wheel speed. When the driven speed exceeds the ground speed, some sort of torque reduction is applied to try and maximize acceleration and control. Rate-of-change based places a limit on how fast the driven wheels of the vehicle can accelerate. If the rate of acceleration exceeds the theoretical maximium, some sort of torque reduction is applied.

Difference-based traction control
Difference-based traction control calculates the driven wheel speed in terms of a ground speed by looking at driven wheel rotation, then compares it to actual ground speed. Ground speed can be determined in several ways. Most common is an undriven wheelspeed sensor. In some applications, ground-speed radar based sensors may be used. Also, high-resolution differential GPS systems may be used. Finally, some systems "predict" ground speed with rate of change algorithms, resulting in a hybrid system of sorts. Some advanced system may use a combination of these techniques as well.

Rate-of-change traction control
Rate of change tracition control relies on the user entering a maximum acceleration rate. This can be the rate of rear wheel or engine acceleration. Difference based traction control is often used in series where ground speed detection is not allowed, or it cannot be accurately determined.

Difference-based traction control issues
Issues with difference-based traction control usually have to do with speed detection. Drive wheel speed is most often determined by a wheelspeed sensor. In this scenario, the speed of the vehicle is a function of tire diameter. In situations where tire growth is a problem, or where diameter changes (such as on a motorcycle) this needs to be accounted for. The same issues exist for ground speed, with a few more caveats. The most common detection method is via front wheel speed. Again, this can be suceptible to diameter changes. Furthermore, in series where the front wheel can come off the ground, reliable speed dection is difficult. Ground-Speed radar based speed sensors require the sensor to have a very constant angle to the ground. Therefore, it is not effective on motorcycles or vehicle which may experience a lot of roll. GPS-based speed sensing is difficult becuase most GPS systems have a variable delay, from 0.1 to about 1s, which makes it difficult to compare speeds in real time. There are some very high end GPS signals which eliminate this problem, but they also require a clear, unobstructed view of the sky.

Rate-of-change traction control issues
The biggest problem with rate of change traction control is determining when a sudden engine acceleration is due to a loss of traction rather than a chassis input, tire diameter change or some other factor not involving slip. Also, the maximum allowable rate of change is fairly variable for different tracks and different track conditions. It is effected by tire selection, gear ratio, engine speed, throttle angle and many other variables. To accurately determine the maximum rate of change is very challenging, and the target is always moving.

There's a start. Ask some questions, and next time we'll go into MOTEC-specific discussions.

-Neel
Neel Vasavada
Apex Speed Technology
2947 S. Sepulveda Blvd
Los Angeles, CA 90064
(P)310.314.2005
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Postby IJ. » Sun Jun 03, 2007 4:31 pm

Neel: Thanks for the primer ;)

M800 V3.3 software basic configuration would be helpful.

Also I need some help with the 6 position switch as mentioned above.

I'm very new to MoTeC but have spent the last 5 years running Wolf products so have a basic understanding.

The motor in question is a 7M 3.0l Toyota running straight LPG and made 410kw at the wheels @ 20 psi last dyno session on a very conservative map.
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Location: Australia

Motec TC setup

Postby Neel » Mon Jun 04, 2007 12:47 pm

800 V3.3 software basic configuration would be helpful.


Setting up the MOTEC TC software is fairly complex. Getting it to work well takes time and testing. If you've never done this before, it may be worth having one of us come to a test to help you set it up. It can save you days and days of testing and fiddling. A full description of how to set everything up and tune it would make for a good long book, so I'm going to summarize some important points and then encourage you to play with software and come back with some questions on specifics. We'll start with the options under "adjust/functions/traction control/Setup:"

Slip Calculation Mod

If you have sensors for each wheelspeed, use "Ground Speed versus Drive Speed." If you have only drive wheel speeds, select "Drive Speed Rate of Change." If you only have engine RPM, select "RPM Rate of Change." Don't worry about option 2. And keep in mind that the rate of change styles are much harder to tune.

Slip Units

Percentage slip works better for higher speeds, but speed units works better for lower speeds. Some systems allow you to do both and switch between them depending on speed, but MOTEC doesn't.

Slip Filter

Use this to determine how much smoothing you want to do on your slip channel.

Driven Wheel Balance

This will depend on how many wheelspeeds you are running, and what kind of differential you have. It helps define what the speed is when you're in a turn, or whenever the drive wheels are turning at different speeds.

AIM Slip Comp 1/2

These can be used for a variety of situations where you want to allow more or less slip. One will be for your 6-position switch.

Launch functions

This is for tuning Launch control. We'll deal with this once TC is setup properly.


Aim Slip Filter

This can be used to keep rapid changes in your target slip from resulting in harsh control.

Control Method

How you control it depends on your motor. Is it drive by wire? How much torque reduction can be safely achieved through timing retard? Are you trying to hide traction control?

TC Gains

These have to be tuned in testing.

Now, the first thing you have to do is setup your wheelspeed inputs under "input setup" and go test. You want to log slip so and wheelspeeds in order to determine what kind of slip numbers indicate wheelspin and what doesn't. Then you will need to update your aim slip table with these numbers activate TC, and determine where to increase or decrease the values.

In order to use your 6-position switch, you need to set it up as a "user input" in input setups. Calibrate it so it goes from 1-6, then setup an "aim slip comp" table so you can increase or decrease slip values based on its position.

I hope this will give you some ideas. Ask questions!
Neel Vasavada
Apex Speed Technology
2947 S. Sepulveda Blvd
Los Angeles, CA 90064
(P)310.314.2005
(f)310.496.0951
neel@apexspeedtech.com
http://www.apexspeedtech.com
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Postby IJ. » Mon Jun 04, 2007 1:04 pm

Neel: Thankyou very much!

That gives me a starting point and as there's no rush I'm happy to "fiddle" around with it and see what results I can achieve.

As my motor has no fuel control via the Motec it's going to be a little difficult and I understand it's never going to be a 100% solution it's got to be better than nothing (nothing pretty well sums up traction at this point)
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TC and MOTEC

Postby Neel » Mon Jun 04, 2007 2:12 pm

As my motor has no fuel control via the Motec it's going to be a little difficult and I understand it's never going to be a 100% solution it's got to be better than nothing (nothing pretty well sums up traction at this point)


What application is this for? Lack of fuel control should not be a problem; we only do ignition cut anyway.
Neel Vasavada
Apex Speed Technology
2947 S. Sepulveda Blvd
Los Angeles, CA 90064
(P)310.314.2005
(f)310.496.0951
neel@apexspeedtech.com
http://www.apexspeedtech.com
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Postby IJ. » Tue Jun 05, 2007 1:31 am

Neel: It's running LPG as a fuel so carbed.

So are you using Timing retard and the Rev limiter to control spin?

I use an Apexi AVCR as a boost controller at the moment and I can force it to WG by pulling the scramble to ground so this may be another strategy that can be bought in on the wet setting.
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Traction control

Postby Neel » Tue Jun 05, 2007 8:16 am

So are you using Timing retard and the Rev limiter to control spin?


Don't think of it as timing retard and rev limiter. Think of it as torque reduction. What we do is retard timing to reduce some of the engine's torque output, then selectively cut ignition to reduce more of it. Its not a rev limiter becuase it doesn't try to keep the engine at a constant speed. What it does try to do is reduce the output enough to meet your slip target.

Wet setting? What kind of racing does this vehicle do? There may be other inputs for you to consider....

-Neel
Neel Vasavada
Apex Speed Technology
2947 S. Sepulveda Blvd
Los Angeles, CA 90064
(P)310.314.2005
(f)310.496.0951
neel@apexspeedtech.com
http://www.apexspeedtech.com
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Postby IJ. » Tue Jun 05, 2007 1:32 pm

Neel: Thanks that makes more sense.

It's not a race car it's just a fast fun toy that I use as a DD here so it's see's a lot of varied conditions and is on street tires so is very traction limited at the best of times.

I can do 1000+ KM's each weekend so R rated tires are out of the question.

I've just pulled the Tremec TKO 5 speed out and replaced it with a 4 speed Auto so I'm not sure how it's going to drive now.
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Other inputs

Postby Neel » Tue Jun 05, 2007 1:59 pm

If you're interested, you can do steering angle correction or lateral G correction as well, or use a second switch to limit the max power reduction to allow for power slides.....
Neel Vasavada
Apex Speed Technology
2947 S. Sepulveda Blvd
Los Angeles, CA 90064
(P)310.314.2005
(f)310.496.0951
neel@apexspeedtech.com
http://www.apexspeedtech.com
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Postby IJ. » Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:04 pm

Neel: I'm old and NOT a drifter ;)

I got to the stage last year I stopped driving the car due to the traction issue and bought the new Wolf v500 as traction control was "3 months away" that was 8 months ago so I bought the M800 to replace the Wolf....

Should have just gone MoTeC from the start..

I pick up a pair of Bosch Ignitors today and the car will be drivable then I can start setting all of this up.
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Drifting

Postby Neel » Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:55 pm

Everyone's a drifter at one time or another. The only difference is that some people like to do it in private, and some in front of a crowd!
Neel Vasavada
Apex Speed Technology
2947 S. Sepulveda Blvd
Los Angeles, CA 90064
(P)310.314.2005
(f)310.496.0951
neel@apexspeedtech.com
http://www.apexspeedtech.com
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Postby IJ. » Tue Jun 05, 2007 3:13 pm

Neel: That made me LOL here for real :)

The Supra has a steering angle sensor so maybe once I get the rest sorted I'll take you up on your offer.

The MoTeC learning curve is a little steep (vertical) but I have plenty of time to play around once I get nudged in the right direction.
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learning curve

Postby Neel » Tue Jun 05, 2007 11:14 pm

Let's hope people keep buying electronics from me so I don't have to try and make a living as a comedian....

We're here to make the learning curve easier. Don't hestiate to ask questions!
Neel Vasavada
Apex Speed Technology
2947 S. Sepulveda Blvd
Los Angeles, CA 90064
(P)310.314.2005
(f)310.496.0951
neel@apexspeedtech.com
http://www.apexspeedtech.com
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Postby IJ. » Tue Jun 05, 2007 11:50 pm

Thanks again Neel,

I added a bunch of pics in my first post if anyone is interested in seeing what I'm up to.

I got it running again today but suspect I have a faulty IEX as I'm missing 2 cylinders. :(
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